Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

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charliepie
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Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by charliepie » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:33 pm

Hey guys,
Just posting for some moral support and to see if anyone has encountered anything similar before.
Logged into my exchange account today and the low-on-funds pop-up asked if I wanted to make a deposit which was a bit odd until I noticed my balance was a big fat ZERO!! A bit of digging into the betting history revealed this:-

Fixtures 11 Aug / Newcastle v Arsenal / Over/Under 4.5 Goals Over 4.5 Goals Back 174386088577 11-Aug-19
14:08 C 8 440.30 8 (440.30)

Bet placed yesterday at 2.08pm @ odds of 8.00. Not by me though or anybody I authorised on my behalf.

So the bet lost and wiped out my balance - I have informed BF so we shall see what their investigation turns up. I checked my internet history and I didn't go online until 2.58pm on Sunday(though not on betfair)

That's bad enough but I thought I had better check other accounts where I have more than 3 figures deposited...

Low and behold I discovered 2 spreadbets had been placed on my SPIN account at 2.06pm and 2.36pm, both buys of goal minutes(@ 152 & 128 minutes) for £5 and £2 respectively. These were also on the same Newc vs Arsenal game, surely that can't be a coincidence? So the closing price was 58 minutes so £610 down the tubes there. SPIN are going to look into this naturally.

So what do you guys reckon, any chance of getting any money back? It definitely was not me and the ip address trail will hopfully bear this out but will that be enough to get a refund? Also these are not the kind of bets that I have typically made before so also a little strange...I can't see how the SPIN bets would benefit the fraudster but on betfair they could have been the layers of the 8.00 over goals bet so could possibly benefit from that.

I consider myself pretty techie but am struggling to determine how these two breeches occurred - any thoughts? I'd rather not be £1050 out of pocket!

I wonder what might have happened if those bets had actually won?! Would I have been chased for those winnings?

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FlyingBenny
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by FlyingBenny » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:33 am

Morning charliepie

Sorry to read about your dilemma - it makes for frightening reading. May I ask if you've opened any new accounts recently using the same username and password as your defrauded accounts? I only ask as I was the subject of an attempted fraud via Paypal back in January a couple of days after opening an account with moplay.co.uk and I've always half suspected it could have been one of their employees. Unfortunately it was never investigated by Paypal as I'd also got my bank involved at the same time but at least I got the refund from both of them which was a result!

Best of luck with the outcome and please keep us informed.
“Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it ... he who doesn't ... pays it.” Albert Einstein. Each way trebles it is then!

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Col
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by Col » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:14 am

That is scary charlie :(
Sorry to hear that.

Benny's explanation does seem plausible. There are loads of fly by night bookies springing up.
I suppose the only way anyone could benefit doing that has to be an exchange or a spreadbet account, as they would be on the other side of the trades.

I'm sure you'll get your money back once it's looked into.
Meanwhile I'm off to change my passwords.

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nick
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by nick » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:33 am

That's really nasty, Charlie :( . Like Col I'd expect you to have your monies replaced, especially as they were in Betfair and Sporting Index accounts rather than one of the lesser, more dubious outfits. If not, I'm sure with the proof you can provide that you could refer the matters to IBAS.

Personally I never leave more than £100 in any bookmaker's account. At the end of every day even if I had, say, £120 in an account I'd withdraw the lot.

Hope things work out well for you.

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The Fenman
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by The Fenman » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:00 pm

Gawd now im panicing cause im the most un computer savvie manon the planet {8 {8 {8 *, *,
Keep doing right things, right things happen. . . Simple innit

gawa
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by gawa » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:53 pm

Unfortunately this is not new on BF. Just Google 'Betfair Account Hacked' and there are quite a few similar stories over the years. Quite a few of these are too similar for comfort where a punter loses by having the money placed on a very unlikely outcome of some event.
Some of the lads on the BF forum who have experienced this have come to the conclusion that someone in BF can access accounts in order to place the bets and then either lay the outcome or get an accomplice to lay it.
Complaints to BF generally fall on deaf ears as they are notoriously unhelpful and unsympathetic and probably do their damnedest to avoid admitting any liability and setting any precedent.
Hope you can get recompense Charlie but its also a wake up call for the rest of us.

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harry_rag
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by harry_rag » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:25 pm

I can only add my commiserations and best wishes for a favourable resolution to those above. Agree it's scary, perhaps a reminder to change any passwords that you've had for ages and don't use the same or similar ones for different sites.

Have you looked under "Security Settings" on BF? You can see all your log ins and the IP address and country which they were from.

As to how they got into your accounts, I can only assume you've been hacked in some way, e.g. spyware or someone has accessed where your passwords are recorded (if they are). You say the bets weren't placed by you "or anybody I authorised on my behalf" - I assume you have never actually allowed anyone to do that? If someone else has your details then some suspicion would obviously have to fall in that direction. I certainly wouldn't admit it to the bookies as it may reduce your chances of getting a refund. Do you bet on any mobile devices that someone could have had access to, or log on via public wi-fi?

Hopefully there's something to support the fact that you didn't place these bets and the firms refund accordingly but I'm not sure that bookies are under the same sort of obligation as banks to refund fraudulent transactions, I think they may tend to take the view that you must have allowed someone else to know your log in details unless there's evidence to the contrary.

One thing that strikes me is that I'm not sure how whoever did this could benefit had the bets won, unless they were able to withdraw the funds to their bank account. I don't know if that would have been easily done, i.e. withdrawing funds to a source that has never been used to deposit to the account?

Not sure I agree with Col's contention that this could only be done via spreads or exchange; surely it would be just as easy to take both sides of over/under bets with 2 conventional bookies, or back with one and lay on an exchange? Certainly agree with Nick in terms of not leaving too much money on deposit.

As I say, all the best and let us know how you get on.

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charliepie
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by charliepie » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:04 pm

Thanks for all your replies guys.

Good point Benny but I haven't opened any new accounts with the same user name recently - the last ones were Racebets/Netbet/Sportnation but that was a few years ago.

I agree it seems unlikely that any winnings could have been withdrawn by the fraudster but the betfair one could have been laid off into another account I suppose - the SPIN bets don't make a lot of sense to me though.

I was getting a bit lax about leaving too much money in my accounts so will have to tighten up on that in the future.

I did review the IP logs on BF as it shows the last 10 and there were 3 that were not me:- 9th Aug 9.10am 209.250.224.39 9th Aug 8.24pm 45.77.231.169 11th Aug 2.03pm 45.77.231.169 so I have looked these up myself and all are connected to Choopa isp London so hopefully BF will see this as suspicious and not me using a VPN!

I've never let anyone place bets for me using my accounts and I have never told anyone my passwords either. Occasionally use BF on my phone but not usually on public wifi and I use the fingerprint log-in on my phone so no typing of passwords which is more secure.

I'm sure people do try and intentionally defraud the bookies by getting an accomplice to log in from another location and then if the bet loses complain about fraud so I can see that it might be hard to prove one's innocence. Certainly the betting pattern does not match my modus operandi but that's perhaps all I've got going for me and possibly the fact that I've had these accounts for over 15 years I think which should show a discernible pattern of activity...

Will keep you posted.

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Matt
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by Matt » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:05 pm

Hi Charlie.

Very sorry to hear of your predicament but it certainly provides food for thought so thanks for highlighting the issue.

I reconcile my accounts on a daily basis so I know this has never happened to me (so far), but I have a lot of money on deposit at Betfair and SPIN so you have certainly got me thinking.

As you quite rightly say, the SPIN bets cannot benefit the fraudster, but they might have been some sort of test to see if the passwords worked?

I'm not about to go into bat for either firm, but SPIN once called me when I inadvertently placed a bet for about 10 times my usual stake. My impression was that they were very professional about my mistake and did not want to win or lose money in an unfair manner.

Hope you get it sorted.

Matt.

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charliepie
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by charliepie » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:31 pm

Thanks Matt, I certainly am not in the habit of playing £7 a point in the goal minutes market but I guess there were enough funds to cover a 0 makeup(justabout!) - I haven't heard anything yet but I guess it will take 3 or 4 days for them to get back to me...BF have 2 factor authentication but I've been averse to using it as it takes quite a bit longer to login waiting for a text which sometimes never arrives(you can also use an app which doesn't rely on mobile signal) but I think you can enable it for new devices only so I may have to opt in when I start using BF again.

kenbo
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by kenbo » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:54 am

This is becoming quite a common topic on the Betfair forum nowadays. Most of the time the money is replaced, but I have heard many stories where people aren’t reimbursed.

I hope you get your money back.

Unfortunately there will be one or two people who will try and take advantage of a situation. I could give my log in details to someone I knew (far away would add extra gravitas I presume?) and tell them to place an unusual, lumpy bet. If it lost then I’d cry foul, if it won then I’d be well up until the next time!

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harry_rag
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by harry_rag » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:03 am

kenbo wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:54 am
Unfortunately there will be one or two people who will try and take advantage of a situation. I could give my log in details to someone I knew (far away would add extra gravitas I presume?) and tell them to place an unusual, lumpy bet. If it lost then I’d cry foul, if it won then I’d be well up until the next time!
Careful, you'll be giving Fenners ideas! :lol

Though your reference to "extra gravitas" may throw him, probably thinks it's something you might ask for in the chippy if you spoke latin. ;-)

kenbo
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by kenbo » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:57 pm

:lol :lol

It’s what made Neil Armstrong walk funny on the moon!

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charliepie
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by charliepie » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:32 pm

True - I can see how this would be easy to potentially take advantage of kenbo in exactly the manner you describe and it must be difficult to determine genuine cases from people who are intentionally trying it on. I guess you could get away with it once but if it happened again I'm not so sure...I'll have to and check out the betfair forum.

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charliepie
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by charliepie » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:56 pm

Update - Spin called me this afternoon to inform me they're still investigating but also to say they are refunding me in full and offered their apologies which I thought was pretty classy! Haven't heard a peep from bf but they have closed my account(without even an email to inform me) so not sure that is a good sign or not...

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Col
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by Col » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:02 pm

Well done Spin :thumbs
Shocking customer service from Betfair.

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harry_rag
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by harry_rag » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:22 pm

Agreed, though hopefully it just means they want you to open a new account for security reasons. Poor communication either way.

I assume you’ve changed your password with SPIN?

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charliepie
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by charliepie » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:43 pm

I certainly have harry along with just about all my other passwords for amazon/ebay/paypal etc

I'm quite impressed with SPIN but BF have been a shambles so far! I have had accounts with both for over 15 years now so hopefully that will work in my favour.

jimb
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by jimb » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:48 am

Just read this, shocking stuff and hopefully all will be resolved.

Quick question, I would much rather place my bets with either Spin or Spreadex as they are regulated by the FCA, but does that apply to their fixed odds offerings as well?

Also does anyone know of a site that does odds correlation, by that I mean if over 2.5 is 1.91 on the exchanges then what would should it be to buy as a spread bet?
Behold the turtle. He makes progress only when he sticks his neck out.

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harry_rag
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by harry_rag » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:14 am

jimb wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:48 am
Quick question, I would much rather place my bets with either Spin or Spreadex as they are regulated by the FCA, but does that apply to their fixed odds offerings as well?
Good point re FCA regulation; may explain why SPIN refunded so promptly. Fixed odds betting isn’t a regulated activity so any complaints about a fixed odds bet would have to go to IBAS, whereas other complaints could go to the Financial Ombudsman.

jimb
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by jimb » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:23 am

I've changed my Betfair password and also opted for the 2-tier verification, seems to work ok and must make it more difficult for the shysters
Behold the turtle. He makes progress only when he sticks his neck out.

jimb
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by jimb » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:37 am

You are correct Harry in regard to the fixed odds betting.

One idea for anyone using either Spin or SX for fixed odds (SX are best market price occasionally) is to move any funds from the fixed odds wallet across to the spread betting wallet at the end of each day.
Behold the turtle. He makes progress only when he sticks his neck out.

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harry_rag
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by harry_rag » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:20 pm

jimb wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:48 am
Also does anyone know of a site that does odds correlation, by that I mean if over 2.5 is 1.91 on the exchanges then what would should it be to buy as a spread bet?
I'd say the easiest way to get some sort of comparison is to use the poisson function in excel. It's not perfect but it's a decent reference point.

For instance, it would tell you that if the average/expected total goals is 2.75, the odds for >2.5 goals is 1.928. 2.7 is pretty much the point where overs goes odds on; below that it would be odds against. If the expectation drops as low as 2.1 then you're looking at 2.85 as a ballpark price for overs.

I assume you're a whizz on spreadsheets but let me know if that all sounds like so much gobbledegook! {8

jimb
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by jimb » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:42 am

I'm rubbish at spreadsheets, Matt very kindly does them for me!

Having said that those ballpark figures that you gave are enough for me to work from, so :cheers
Behold the turtle. He makes progress only when he sticks his neck out.

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charliepie
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Re: Fraud on Betfair & SportingIndex!

Post by charliepie » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:20 pm

Interesting point about the FCA regulation...

So BF have finally sent me a link to reopen my account but of course no refund and no explanation so I'm sure they are just planning to sweep it under the carpet so it looks like I will have to press them again and then take it to IBAS do you think? It's going to be a struggle to get any money back from them though I think judging by the way they have conducted themselves so far.

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